Santa

Two things I want to ask people to do differently.

First, in both CTF Well and Turbine, PLEASE do not build sentry guns in your base. Seems counter intuitive, but if your team does that and the other doesn't, you will be pinned in your base the entire time. You may get a lucky cap, but you wont get 3. However, you will probably lose your intel 3 times. Even if you dont, you are pinned in your base and its not as fun for either team, and ending CTF in a stalemate battle is stupid. The reason this happens is because in both of these maps, the only important area of the battle is right in the middle because it gives you access to the other base. If your team has 2 or 3 engineers defending the home base, you are outnumbered 12-9 in the middle. Good luck beating those odds!

Secondly, and kinda similarly, learn how to kill sentry guns. If you are unable to, you are literally no smarter than a bot. For any kit trying to take out a sentry (except for probably spy because his method is totally different), master the ability to peek around a corner to take a pot shot without being shot yourself. Find out where the sentry gun is, line up your crosshair, and then all ya have to do is go back and forth with A and D.

Soldiers must aim behind the sentry to kill the engy. If you aim it well enough, not only will you hurt the engy but youll hurt the sentry, making him come back to eat more rockets or else lose the sentry gun. So many stupid soldiers just pour rocket after rocket into a sentry gun, and itisnt going to do anything unless the engy has no metal or isnt present.

If you cant take a sentry out as a demomen, you should stop playing demoman because you are wasting a kit on your team. Harsh, but im super cereal. Stickies on any sentry close, and if you are good enough, you can even kill a sentry with pipe bombs pretty effectively. Ive done it on the last CP of dustbowl numerous times to great effect.

As pyro, you can take out a sentry gun if its right around a corner easily. Just circle strafe till its down. If its T3, try to get someone else to put a rocket or something in it at the same time.

Any other class can use the A-D method with their shotgun or similar to down a sentry if it isnt manned by an engy. We really gotta start shying away from using ubers as the only method of killing sentrys, because its so very easy to do it without one. Then you can use the ubers on actual people instead.

icky

I don't agree. A manned sentry provides a basic defense against sneaky spies and scouts. If you have ALL of your stuff in the middle on turbine, a scout will eventually slip by you and steal your intel, and then he is guaranteed to get it at least as far as the middle, where it becomes an open battle which is hard to win. I don't think you can flatly say that sentries in your base is a bad idea.

What IS a bad idea, is hiding behind your doors at the start of these two maps. The scouts, pyros, and spies in particular should be ALL over the opposing team's sniper spots, allowing your team to get into play in the middle. If you don't do that, you are going to need a miracle to get out of your shell.

BaneII

Santa has a point. However, here is the reality. As an Engineer, I don't build where I don't get support. That means my teammates have to cover me while I'm building. And that also means they have to protect me and my sentry when I get attacked. All too often, teammates ignore the Engineer and their buildings and let them constantly fall to the enemy. You always hear the sapping warning but I still see people walking right past without helping to kill the enemy Spy. When I see stuff like that, then you'll find me inside of my base where I have cover and can more easily hold out on my own. Because I can't take on concentrated or repeated attacks by myself as Engineer.

If I'm not playing Engineer, then I'll do my best to protect a sentry gun. I consider the sentry gun as another teammate and it's my job to protect it. If a Pyro tries to take it down, then I'll do my best to try to juggle him for as long as possible. If a Demoman attempts to sticky it, then I'll do my best to blow the stickies away or go and kill that Demoman. If a Soldier is firing rockets, sometimes I'll take the hit to give the Engineer a chance to repair. I've even given invulnerbilities to repairing Engineers so they survive uber Pyro attacks so the sentry gun will still be standing afterwards. However, it's quite rare that I've been returned the favor when I'm Engineer.

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-F33- BaneII
Smokers & Jokers

jepzilla

A sentry is more valuable than your life. One tactic I recommend is throwing yourself between a sentry and an ubered heavy or soldier (especially if you're a heavy). You'll die, yeah, but there's a good chance you'll keep the sentry alive until the uber finishes and then the sentry can fend for itself quite nicely.

bleckuhffinity

this is all really dumb please stick to imparting knowledge about kits you actually play

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-F- bleak

Beatnik

Haha! Bleak if you haven't already you should really look in to being a diplomat.

I agree with the importance of getting people to learn how to kill sentries, but yeah a sentry in the flagroom or front room on turbine is just about essential. It's much easier to defend against a scout in the flagroom than in the middle, since if the flag is dropped when he gets killed by the sentry it's still in your base, which is MUCH easier to defend than the middle area on these maps. I'd say the success rate for flag defenses on these maps is probably 80% if it's dropped inside the base, and much less than 20% outside the base.

That being said, one sentry in the flagroom paired with another sentry in the middle is a very lethal combination.

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Braidedheadman

Couldn't have said it better. Countless times now I have busted my ass with the engi kit on Turbine trying to set up a forward station in the Turbine Room (center) for people only to have no support come my way whatsoever. People forget that it takes time to set up a dispenser and a gun, neither of which are very effective until at least L2, provided the engi is quick on his feet and has some spare metal in his pocket. It's at times such as these that I've made my way to the forums to rant about how playing the engi kit can be such a thankless job. Suddenly, I don't feel quite so alone in my misery.

That said, I think the problem here, at least in part, is that not many people have put enough time into the kit to undestand or appreciate its nuances, it's difficulties and, ultimately, its strengths.

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Santa

Seriously Bleak, your constant unwillingness to ever argue a point but to always, without fail, resort to ad hominem attacks makes it look like you dont know what the hell you are talking about. If you have a point to make, make it. If you dont, then dont talk.

If I dont ever bring up something simply because I dont play a kit very often (in this case engineer) we wouldn't really progress very much. The thread at least gets people talking about it, and im sure everyones smart enough to listen to people who play engineer more often, like bane. Besides, much of the stuff I talked about was strategy, which anyone can impart knowledge on, and the rest I talked about deal with kits I do play.

Anywhozzle, i agree with bane on the sentiment that ya gotta help engineers. Part of the reason I dont play it too often is because I know most of the time people wont help, and ill have to build in a less than desirable place. I still think all sentry guns should be put in the middle though, so long as people help out the engineers. While beatnik may have a point that its easier to keep a scout at bay in the base, I think its more about giving yourself more opportunities to capture the intel than the other team, even if that means you give up a score. If you hold the middle, you will have more opportunities to score than the scout has. Its sort of like in soccer how generally the team with more possession of the ball and more shots on goal wins. Its why the Brazilians have only 3 men back on defense and win all of their games, and a team with 4 or 5 men back dont do as well.

bleckuhffinity

hey, i resemble that remark!

but seriously, telling other people how to play is almost as bad and grating as other forms of whining, hope you know

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-F- bleak

Arf

I agree with Santa that a sentry gun is more effective up front. It almost guarantees all the territory up to that point and you loose far fewer players on the march to the enemy base. It also does extra duty because it can protect exits (which allows you to regroup even faster) and it has that nice defensive synergy of a sentry with plenty of teammates around it.

The problem is what Braided said. What I've occasionally tried doing is getting a Heavy to cover me while I build. That helps but the Heavy is usually pretty unwilling. The trick seems to be to put the dispenser next to the Heavy rather then the Sentry. That way the Heavy can cover the route the enemy is coming from and he's getting healing and infinite ammo without having to move.

I don't play Engineer enough to really get a feel for how effective this is, I'm just mentioning it because it's better to explain here then while I'm experimenting in game. It did seem pretty effective when you know you're going to run into a hard enemy defense (the second and first enemy flags on CP maps). Plus it creates a nice safe area near the front for Medics since the combination of Sentry/Heavy/Engie makes a pretty good defense, plus there's ammo, and the Heavy is getting constant healing without hogging the Medic.